To hug or not to hug

ouchzone · Experienced Member

To hug or not to hug

liz · Experienced Member

I need hugs big time. They are as vital to me as breathing - well maybe a step down from that - but nonetheless I crave them. I was emotionally as well as sexually abused. Hugs didn't feature in my childhood. Thought I wasn't 'good enough' to be hugged. I still crave those hugs that I didn't get back then - that small child within longs for hugs every single day.

There are people who know my need for hugs who will happily provide them now.

I'm aware though that for other survivors touch and hugs are difficult and out of bounds. and of course I respect that.

In my down and low times - of which there seem to be many - even here I've felt safe enough to ask for hugs. Peoople who think it odd - well tough! Hugs for me are a need, a necessity.

liz x (((((((((((((((((((((Everyone who is able to accept one)))))))))))))

PS Can I have a hug because I've just reached a century.....

ouchzone · Experienced Member

I feel guilty wanting hugs

Here it comes

ou(liz)ch

I'd send you a telegram but I'm not the queen.

liz · Experienced Member

Hi Ouch

You've just raised a chuckle in me - thanks i so needed that! Perhaps we ought to ask Jamie or Claudine to bestow something upon the centurians?

I can understand you feeling guilty about needing hugs. i used to feel a mixture of shame and embarrassment. Something that only children need? But that ain't true at all. Hugs are re-affirming and life giving. Hugs can say so much when words are so inadequate.

Ready?

((((((((((((Ouch))))))))))))) another one?

((((((((((((Ouch))))))))))))) is that a bit better?

liz x

ouchzone · Experienced Member

Guilt not relating to child like behaviour. It's because of the sexual abuse.

Thanks

ou(liz)ch

Frog · Experienced Member

HI,

((((((ouch))))))

((((((Liz)))))))))

Hi I hope thats ok.

Liz 100 Posts Yipppeeeee! well done!

I need alot of hugs too I find them so good,

Ouch, Don't feel gulity for wanting hugs its natural espcailly for us survivors we need to feel safe. I only like hugs froom the right poeple. If the wrong person touches me I freak big time!

ok heres my since bit on hugs,

I find and this is only my take on it, but I feel I didn't have enough love, I was alone I felt so alone, I did get hugs but not the ones I wanted or needed, therefore know I find I want hugs and lots of them but as I said it has to be from the right person.

You may feel afraid to ask for hugs becuase,

1. U need the right sort of hug from the right sort of person

2. U may not know if it is the right sort of hug or right person untill you hug them, and therefore suffer more pain.

3. U may feel u shouldn't have to ask for hugs, they should be there for you when you need them.

4. U may feel that when you have a hug that it so quickly becoames asocaited with memories, and more pain, but you feel you need a hug for love and caring.

I really don't of this helps, and I hope this post is ok for you if not please tell me, as I know you going through a really rought time right now.

Sending all my strength and hugs if that is ok with you.

Frog

ouchzone · Experienced Member

Hi Frog

Your post was fine thanks. You didn't blame me. It's not the abuse that triggers me it's something else and it's associated with the neglect.

When I was 5 & 6 I was living with relatives. They didn't have children. Only just got married even though mature ages. They kept us clean and well fed but that was all. I didn't learn to read. They didn't know. That's how much contact we had. I remember wanting to climb on my uncle's lap behind his newspaper so he wouldn't get angry with me. But I thought it was disloyal to my father and if he ever turned up and found I'd 'adopted' another Dad he would be terribly hurt. I've never seen anyone who wasn't ill look as rough as he did when he did come to the house. Mum was in a mental hospital. She was paranoid and out of touch with reality. He couldn't cope. One day we went out with the uncle. On the way back I felt so alone and I could see his hand dangling down as he walked along. I really wanted to hold his hand but I thought he might get cross with me or feel uncomfortable. So I never did. Only time there was any physical contact he picked me up and carried me to the cooker and opened the door. I knew it was horseplay but I was terrified. I could see inside the oven and I was afraid he was going to drag the shelves out and shove me in and shut the door. He was about eighteen stone and a policeman. This was his idea of entertaining children!

I think sometimes I want hugs from inappropriate people because they happen to be people I can trust. I need to have hugs from parent substitutes. When my husband and I hug it's great but it's not like the feeling of having a parent hug if that makes sense to you. I think I must have something like reactive attachment disorder. Children who have that, hug anybody and treat casual acquaintences like parent substitutes. I can't find any information on long term effects on adults who have been separated in childhood from the primary caregiver. I did find a brief reference somewhere on the net that this condition can happen to children who are living with their birth mother but she is abusive and/or neglectful and not emotionally available (as happened to me + physical separations). I don't think anybody has studied damaged adults or even recognised them as having problems in this area. I wish I could persuade a psychology undergraduate to do some research and a thesis on it. I think it needs addressing and I wouldn't know where to start.

I've experienced people with learning difficulties hugging like this. But it would be very disturbing and probably give the wrong messages if someone without learning difficulties hugged say a college tutor (an example of a care giver).

Does anybody know what I'm talking about. Maybe those where the abuser/neglector was the mother?

ouch

segelov · Experienced Member

hello ouch

A very quick response to say yes I think I do know what you are talking about. Makes pefect sense to me.

Please forgive me but I will respond more fully this evening - just taking a coffee break - and for my sins have lots of orders to get out today!

Hope you do not mind?

Take care

segelov

liz · Experienced Member

Hi Ouch

Yes I know what you're talking about re hugs and the right people to give them. I get the occasionaly hug from my husband but I find that hard because sometimes (like if we're in bed) then I know he means it as the start of other things....and I just can't cope with that. But also his hugs don't mean the same as the ones I wanted all those years ago from my parents - and never got. It's a different relationship to start with.

And these hugs have to be from the right people too. I don't want hugs from just anyone. My last T gave hugs and though it felt good at the time I've since learnt that his boundaries were fairly naff and it would have been kinder in the long run had he not given me them. My current T doesn't give hugs and though it's hard accepting that I know he has my best interests at heart and because of that I feel kind of more respected and he's giving me a sense of dignity somehow. He says he can never fill the gaping void that was left by my parents. And he's right. It took me some weeks to come to that conclusion though becuase the small child in me remains hugely needy and 'greedy' for hugs.

(((((((((((((ouch))))))))))))))

liz x

segelov · Experienced Member

Hello ouch

Back from earning the daily bread!

"I think sometimes I want hugs from inappropriate people because they happen to be people I can trust. I need to have hugs from parent substitutes."

I so understand where your coming from, if your mother does not for whatever reason engage in motherly behaviour, you crave it. It seems that biologically most mothers want to cuddle their children, its how children know who they belong to, its a survival mechanism. Some people are lucky that if their own mother is not able to fulfil that function there are others around, who can step in. In other cultures children are seen as the responsibility of the larger group, so if a mother is sick, there is always some one else. We with our focus on the nuclear family really do have it hard, and mothers who are unable to show physical affection often use possessions as a way of showing love and caring. Another behaviour that mothers who cannot show affection use is to be supercritical of the achievements of their children, and their spouses! It seems to me to be inevitable that children treated like this have to find other ways of dealing with lack of love and positive attention. I became a substitue mother for my sisters, whcih gave me reponsibility as well as love and affection from them. then when I became older, I indulged in a lot of misguided relatioships - justified it by saying that I was a free spirit, drink, drugs and rock and roll and all that. But none of this was ever satisfying, it did not deal with the inner ache, which at that point I had not even acknolwedged.

Like you ouch I was cared for by others - I was lucky as I was educated but the thing that was always missing in this institution was warmth and affection. In care we were clothed and fed, we even had our souls cared for, but not our emotional and psychological needs. And in those days they did not train the carers in the psychology of childhood, so we were very innapropriately treated, although now I believe there is a total ban on carers showing any physical affection to their charges.

And i long for hugs, and I do tend to hug people, but what I did was get involved in a very bohemian existence where hugging etc was not so innappropriate. But now most of them have gone and another strategy has to be adopted! I think us poor adult survivors of maternal neglect need to learn to love ourselves.

I have not gone looking for research into us damaged adults, although I do know there is some about people who have been labelled, and when I was studying in the mid 80's I did some work on the longterm legacy of childhood sexual abuse, but it is a long time since I was reading around that subject, I will try to dig out some books. I am sure that there are mature students out there who could do some research.

Having had children, I just cannot see how a mother can be so cold and calculating, your mother was clearly mentally ill from what you have said, my mother on all but a few occasions appeared to others as such, the main feature of her life was how to acquire the where withall to fund her life, and she every one she came in contact with to so do.

Not sure if any of this helps, or even if it really makes much sense.

Big Hug ((((((((((ouch)))))))))

Take care

segelov

liz · Experienced Member

Hi Segelov

Just want to take you up on one point raised in your posting just now.

How are we meant to learn to love ourselves? I find that question really really difficult to take on board because unless you've experienced unconditional love as a child and know that you're loved just because you're you then how can you teach yourself something which you know nothing about?

I don't mean to sound harsh or cross and if it comes across as that it's not YOU i'm cross with its the whole issue. It's just touched a raw nerve.

I''ve been talking around this subject with my T and jsust seeing it in print in your posting it has triggered stuff again. But don't be alarmed - i'm ok. Don't apologise. I think it's just made me realise all over again how much this lack of love has damaged me and the amount of work and grieving I still need to do.

To end on a positive note you come across as a lovely, warm, maternal person and I know from other postings that we have similar thoughts on various issues.

Take good care and hope the accounts balanced.....

liz x

segelov · Experienced Member

Gosh Liz!

Liz I will try one approach which is how I think I get there sometimes, I think that there are several ways to get there.

OK I did not get this unconditional love from my parents, I suspect the first time that I experienced love in such a way was when I had my children, I knew that I wanted to have someone feel for me what I felt for them, and the only way I was ever going to feel this was by learning to feel it for myself. To forgive myself for the mistakes that I have made, to forgive myself for allowing myself to be a victim (I hate being a victim), this love has grown over the years as my children have grown, it is also how I am now able to accept the love that my partner gives. I very seldom fight that now, and I do not remember the last time I tried to push him away. I was always the person who ruined relationships, I always pushed people away before they pushed me away. However as you are all very aware I still have a long way to go, I still do not love myself, or even feel that I deserve that love a lot of the time. I however have to believe that this has to be possible, there is no one else who will love you unconditionaly, the only relationship where this is possible is between parent and child (and it may well be that it is only possible between mother and child), and maybe it is possible to love one self.

Now maybe that makes no sense either - difficult to put into words sometimes. Have you read Erich Fromm? A little book called The Art of Love he says something along the lines that if you are able to love others you are able to love yourself. He also says that love like everything else has to be practiced, just like a child learning to walk. He may be right/he may be wrong or some where in between. Only picked it up again last night, my bedtime reading at the moment.

Yes the accounts balanced! VAT returns in the post...

Take care

segelov